January Featured Article: CARD ADVANTAGE
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January Featured Article: CARD ADVANTAGE
Darudity Mon Jan 16, 2017 5:42 pm
This article is a discussion between two discord members, on floaters and the general opinion of card advantage.
Discussion Starts here:
[5:13 PM] Cameron Saunders: the idea I had was one I got from you actually when I was watching one of your best of 7s with Allen. You called breaker a floater, and I've been playing modern for quite a while so what is and is not a floater is normally considered pretty rigid nowadays. BA graff and cir are floaters but we wouldn't think of a card like breaker as that anymore. So ultimately I decided to expand on what it is. Man-eater bug is a floater if you flip summon him. He replaces himself on card advantage (via a neg), and you can then sack him for a card like summoned skull at no loss of advantage. An even more primitive floater than sangan/witch.
so effectively, the idea I have for a floater is "Anything that gains some form of advantage and then you don't care what happens to it." If you pop with breaker and exarion runs over it, what was the difference between it and say, tomato, when both have done something to gain advantage. So why would tomato be called a floater and not breaker in this instance? This is something I know you're definitely familiar with since I got the initial idea from you, but I didnt play competitiely back in the day so idk other competitive player's opinions on it.
[5:51 PM] kperovic: I consider cards that have already replaced themselves floaters, and I don't count them in the overall count for card advantage. Breaker is a floater, a flipped Dekoichi is a floater, TER is generally a floater, etc. but they don't generate advantage on their own. Floaters don't generate advantage until a non-replacing card gets used on them, like using Smashing on TER. Or if a free effect resets their one-time self-replacement, like Tsuku does. That's where I count the plus. On the other hand, Sangan is a self-replacing monster, like Tomato, albeit they replace themselves differently. Sangan can generate advantage because he gets an effect no matter how he dies (battle is free but an opponent could Saku it) but Tomato can't (because his effect only activates in the free exchange of battle). I wouldn't call either a floater.
[5:52 PM] kperovic: So me vs you, both six cards in hand, it's your turn and I went first, but you have 3 flipped Dekoichis, I'd say the count is 6-6 but you have 3 floaters. I wouldn't call that 9-6, because I think that obfuscates the reality of the game state.
[5:53 PM] Cameron Saunders: I can agree on that
[5:53 PM] kperovic: (If it was my turn and I went first and we both had 6 cards in hand and nothing else, I'd say I'm down 1.)
[5:53 PM] Cameron Saunders: those dekoichis are no longer cards
[5:54 PM] Cameron Saunders: because of the draw phase after you pass right?(edited)
[5:57 PM] kperovic: Player 1 starts the game with the extra draw, and they have an obvious advantage. But when you're counting cards to evaluate the game state, your answer should be turn-independent. It's the only way to provide clarity on the number of +1 exchanges that took place over the course of the game, and show who is in a dominant position, resource-wise.
[5:58 PM] kperovic: So it only makes sense to count after the second player gets their draw.
[6:01 PM] Cameron Saunders: Right.
[6:01 PM] Cameron Saunders: So what if you saw a sangan search tsukuyomi
[6:01 PM] Cameron Saunders: and they have 3 dekoichis
[6:01 PM] Cameron Saunders: is that 7-6 then?
[6:02 PM] kperovic: Not only they flip one of the dekoichis down.
[6:02 PM] kperovic: *not until
[6:02 PM] kperovic: I don't don't potential plusses in the overall count.
[6:03 PM] Cameron Saunders: I see
[6:04 PM] kperovic: Because I can dustshoot the tsukuyomi, or torrential when they summon it. You don't know yet when you're doing the count.
[6:04 PM] Cameron Saunders: Right
[6:04 PM] Cameron Saunders: So then would my deifnition, though its in layman's terms, be accurate to how you feel? "Anything that gains some form of advantage and then you don't care what happens to it."
[6:05 PM] Cameron Saunders: or how would you refine it to include things you think are floaters that that definition doesnt include
[6:05 PM] kperovic: I wouldn't.
[6:05 PM] kperovic: Like
[6:05 PM] kperovic: Breaker isn't a floater by himself
[6:05 PM] kperovic: If you break an MST that pops your scapegoat
[6:06 PM] kperovic: I wouldn't call him a floater.
[6:06 PM] Cameron Saunders: so how about a past tense. "anything that has gained that advantage(edited)
[6:06 PM] Cameron Saunders: if you trade breaker with mst you've gained nothing, ofc
[6:06 PM] Cameron Saunders: but if you pop a saku you have
[6:12 PM] kperovic: A floater is any card that has already replaced itself and continues to have a presence in the game.
[6:13 PM] kperovic: I don't like the phrase "has gained advantage" because I don't think it clearly explains the terms of that advantage.
[6:13 PM] Cameron Saunders: replacing itself, I feel falls into the same fate though
[6:14 PM] Cameron Saunders: if you breaker an mst, it did replace itself, just not in a way you would have liked
[6:15 PM] kperovic: It doesn't replace ITSELF there though.
[6:15 PM] kperovic: It replaces itself and whatever they MST'd.
[6:16 PM] Cameron Saunders: so then we have to say something like "replaces itself and only itself"
[6:17 PM] kperovic: I mean, I think that's what itself means, but perhaps this is better explained in a paragraph, not a sentence.
[6:18 PM] Cameron Saunders: yeah, I know what you mean. It's just that if I were going to explain this to someone who knows little about yugioh, or at least goats, they're going to go in thinking that a floater is something that summons another monster when it dies, or something like that, and take everything more at face value than what is necessary
[6:18 PM] kperovic: Alternatively, you could go with your advantage thing and just specify "card advantage"
[6:19 PM] kperovic: Not just advantage generally
[6:20 PM] Cameron Saunders: right. advantage and cards aren't always intertwined as modern teaches us. Idk if you still follow the game but now we start with 5 cards going first, and decks make things like triple omega turn 1, which loops your hand out and is a soft ftk, but you go -1 or -2 to make that board.
[6:20 PM] Cameron Saunders: I see a lot of people get way too caught up with card advantage and not thinking about value in relation to it
[6:21 PM] Cameron Saunders: I was playing ynus the other day and he played thunder dragon, so I always just subtracted two cards from whatever count I had on his hand
[6:21 PM] kperovic: I don't think thinking in terms of card advantage is always useful
[6:21 PM] kperovic: Right well
[6:22 PM] kperovic: That's a good point and for the same reason I think of thunder dragon as a minus 1
[6:22 PM] kperovic: Its like if breaker breaks an MST that catches something of mine, I count breaker as a minus 1
[6:22 PM] Cameron Saunders: it can be sort of a "Delayed +1" with cards like graceful
[6:22 PM] Cameron Saunders: or by warding off duo however
[6:22 PM] Cameron Saunders: but we can't really count on unknowns like that
[6:22 PM] kperovic: Right
[6:23 PM] kperovic: If you play a deck without monsters, you aren't up 2 just because they play nobleman
[6:23 PM] kperovic: You have to wait until they draw it
[6:24 PM] Cameron Saunders: you could be up the whole game if you open your reversal quiz :^)
[6:24 PM] Cameron Saunders: but yeah
[6:24 PM] Cameron Saunders: thats a good example
[6:24 PM] kperovic: That's another great example where counting advantage is stupid
[6:25 PM] Cameron Saunders: going -1 doesnt matter if you win because of it/lose if you dont
[6:25 PM] Cameron Saunders: waboku is a -1 unless chained to something, but it basically says "you don't lose this turn"
[6:28 PM] kperovic: Card advantage is just a metric to evaluate the trade offs you make over the course of a game. It's an important metric and it will guide your thinking while you play, like "we're both at 8000 so should I Smash that atk mode Exarion and attack, or just do 100 damage with my airknight?" In one situation you can imagine yourself keeping the smash, and one without, and it's those tradeoffs you should be paying attention to when you're playing in a slow, grindy format with mirror matches.
[6:29 PM] kperovic: Like half the goat deck are even-trade cards. Its not like today where any 5 cards can combo together to generate advantage. Its purposefully harder to plus in goats.
[6:30 PM] kperovic: Not impossible obviously. There's trinity, bls, meta, etc. But those are more rare than saku, dust, mst, flips, book, exarion etc
[6:32 PM] Cameron Saunders: I think something people forget about in terms of card advantage is the battle phase though
[6:32 PM] Cameron Saunders: I so rarely see mention of it in trades
[6:33 PM] Cameron Saunders: but I think that's often because game mechanics are an afterthought
[6:34 PM] Cameron Saunders: and the number of flip monsters that become floaters is very high in the format(edited)
[6:34 PM] kperovic: It'd be different if people ran more blade knight and kycoo
[6:41 PM] Cameron Saunders: So if I were to make a video and define this, how about: "A floater is a card that has replaced its own value in trade, while lingering in the game."
[6:50 PM] kperovic: I feel like you should just say whatever you're most comfortable with that gets your point across.
[6:51 PM] kperovic: I'm not sure anyone else will read into it as much as we are.
[6:52 PM] Cameron Saunders: yeah probably. I'd be following with an explanation and a contrast to modern definitions anyway
[6:53 PM] kperovic: Right, I wouldn't sweat it.
[6:55 PM] Cameron Saunders: Thanks for the discussion, man.
-End of Discussion-
Last Note: Cameron Saunders is a weed head. This picture clearly shows him after he had smoked some lines.
Discussion Starts here:
[5:13 PM] Cameron Saunders: the idea I had was one I got from you actually when I was watching one of your best of 7s with Allen. You called breaker a floater, and I've been playing modern for quite a while so what is and is not a floater is normally considered pretty rigid nowadays. BA graff and cir are floaters but we wouldn't think of a card like breaker as that anymore. So ultimately I decided to expand on what it is. Man-eater bug is a floater if you flip summon him. He replaces himself on card advantage (via a neg), and you can then sack him for a card like summoned skull at no loss of advantage. An even more primitive floater than sangan/witch.
so effectively, the idea I have for a floater is "Anything that gains some form of advantage and then you don't care what happens to it." If you pop with breaker and exarion runs over it, what was the difference between it and say, tomato, when both have done something to gain advantage. So why would tomato be called a floater and not breaker in this instance? This is something I know you're definitely familiar with since I got the initial idea from you, but I didnt play competitiely back in the day so idk other competitive player's opinions on it.
[5:51 PM] kperovic: I consider cards that have already replaced themselves floaters, and I don't count them in the overall count for card advantage. Breaker is a floater, a flipped Dekoichi is a floater, TER is generally a floater, etc. but they don't generate advantage on their own. Floaters don't generate advantage until a non-replacing card gets used on them, like using Smashing on TER. Or if a free effect resets their one-time self-replacement, like Tsuku does. That's where I count the plus. On the other hand, Sangan is a self-replacing monster, like Tomato, albeit they replace themselves differently. Sangan can generate advantage because he gets an effect no matter how he dies (battle is free but an opponent could Saku it) but Tomato can't (because his effect only activates in the free exchange of battle). I wouldn't call either a floater.
[5:52 PM] kperovic: So me vs you, both six cards in hand, it's your turn and I went first, but you have 3 flipped Dekoichis, I'd say the count is 6-6 but you have 3 floaters. I wouldn't call that 9-6, because I think that obfuscates the reality of the game state.
[5:53 PM] Cameron Saunders: I can agree on that
[5:53 PM] kperovic: (If it was my turn and I went first and we both had 6 cards in hand and nothing else, I'd say I'm down 1.)
[5:53 PM] Cameron Saunders: those dekoichis are no longer cards
[5:54 PM] Cameron Saunders: because of the draw phase after you pass right?(edited)
[5:57 PM] kperovic: Player 1 starts the game with the extra draw, and they have an obvious advantage. But when you're counting cards to evaluate the game state, your answer should be turn-independent. It's the only way to provide clarity on the number of +1 exchanges that took place over the course of the game, and show who is in a dominant position, resource-wise.
[5:58 PM] kperovic: So it only makes sense to count after the second player gets their draw.
[6:01 PM] Cameron Saunders: Right.
[6:01 PM] Cameron Saunders: So what if you saw a sangan search tsukuyomi
[6:01 PM] Cameron Saunders: and they have 3 dekoichis
[6:01 PM] Cameron Saunders: is that 7-6 then?
[6:02 PM] kperovic: Not only they flip one of the dekoichis down.
[6:02 PM] kperovic: *not until
[6:02 PM] kperovic: I don't don't potential plusses in the overall count.
[6:03 PM] Cameron Saunders: I see
[6:04 PM] kperovic: Because I can dustshoot the tsukuyomi, or torrential when they summon it. You don't know yet when you're doing the count.
[6:04 PM] Cameron Saunders: Right
[6:04 PM] Cameron Saunders: So then would my deifnition, though its in layman's terms, be accurate to how you feel? "Anything that gains some form of advantage and then you don't care what happens to it."
[6:05 PM] Cameron Saunders: or how would you refine it to include things you think are floaters that that definition doesnt include
[6:05 PM] kperovic: I wouldn't.
[6:05 PM] kperovic: Like
[6:05 PM] kperovic: Breaker isn't a floater by himself
[6:05 PM] kperovic: If you break an MST that pops your scapegoat
[6:06 PM] kperovic: I wouldn't call him a floater.
[6:06 PM] Cameron Saunders: so how about a past tense. "anything that has gained that advantage(edited)
[6:06 PM] Cameron Saunders: if you trade breaker with mst you've gained nothing, ofc
[6:06 PM] Cameron Saunders: but if you pop a saku you have
[6:12 PM] kperovic: A floater is any card that has already replaced itself and continues to have a presence in the game.
[6:13 PM] kperovic: I don't like the phrase "has gained advantage" because I don't think it clearly explains the terms of that advantage.
[6:13 PM] Cameron Saunders: replacing itself, I feel falls into the same fate though
[6:14 PM] Cameron Saunders: if you breaker an mst, it did replace itself, just not in a way you would have liked
[6:15 PM] kperovic: It doesn't replace ITSELF there though.
[6:15 PM] kperovic: It replaces itself and whatever they MST'd.
[6:16 PM] Cameron Saunders: so then we have to say something like "replaces itself and only itself"
[6:17 PM] kperovic: I mean, I think that's what itself means, but perhaps this is better explained in a paragraph, not a sentence.
[6:18 PM] Cameron Saunders: yeah, I know what you mean. It's just that if I were going to explain this to someone who knows little about yugioh, or at least goats, they're going to go in thinking that a floater is something that summons another monster when it dies, or something like that, and take everything more at face value than what is necessary
[6:18 PM] kperovic: Alternatively, you could go with your advantage thing and just specify "card advantage"
[6:19 PM] kperovic: Not just advantage generally
[6:20 PM] Cameron Saunders: right. advantage and cards aren't always intertwined as modern teaches us. Idk if you still follow the game but now we start with 5 cards going first, and decks make things like triple omega turn 1, which loops your hand out and is a soft ftk, but you go -1 or -2 to make that board.
[6:20 PM] Cameron Saunders: I see a lot of people get way too caught up with card advantage and not thinking about value in relation to it
[6:21 PM] Cameron Saunders: I was playing ynus the other day and he played thunder dragon, so I always just subtracted two cards from whatever count I had on his hand
[6:21 PM] kperovic: I don't think thinking in terms of card advantage is always useful
[6:21 PM] kperovic: Right well
[6:22 PM] kperovic: That's a good point and for the same reason I think of thunder dragon as a minus 1
[6:22 PM] kperovic: Its like if breaker breaks an MST that catches something of mine, I count breaker as a minus 1
[6:22 PM] Cameron Saunders: it can be sort of a "Delayed +1" with cards like graceful
[6:22 PM] Cameron Saunders: or by warding off duo however
[6:22 PM] Cameron Saunders: but we can't really count on unknowns like that
[6:22 PM] kperovic: Right
[6:23 PM] kperovic: If you play a deck without monsters, you aren't up 2 just because they play nobleman
[6:23 PM] kperovic: You have to wait until they draw it
[6:24 PM] Cameron Saunders: you could be up the whole game if you open your reversal quiz :^)
[6:24 PM] Cameron Saunders: but yeah
[6:24 PM] Cameron Saunders: thats a good example
[6:24 PM] kperovic: That's another great example where counting advantage is stupid
[6:25 PM] Cameron Saunders: going -1 doesnt matter if you win because of it/lose if you dont
[6:25 PM] Cameron Saunders: waboku is a -1 unless chained to something, but it basically says "you don't lose this turn"
[6:28 PM] kperovic: Card advantage is just a metric to evaluate the trade offs you make over the course of a game. It's an important metric and it will guide your thinking while you play, like "we're both at 8000 so should I Smash that atk mode Exarion and attack, or just do 100 damage with my airknight?" In one situation you can imagine yourself keeping the smash, and one without, and it's those tradeoffs you should be paying attention to when you're playing in a slow, grindy format with mirror matches.
[6:29 PM] kperovic: Like half the goat deck are even-trade cards. Its not like today where any 5 cards can combo together to generate advantage. Its purposefully harder to plus in goats.
[6:30 PM] kperovic: Not impossible obviously. There's trinity, bls, meta, etc. But those are more rare than saku, dust, mst, flips, book, exarion etc
[6:32 PM] Cameron Saunders: I think something people forget about in terms of card advantage is the battle phase though
[6:32 PM] Cameron Saunders: I so rarely see mention of it in trades
[6:33 PM] Cameron Saunders: but I think that's often because game mechanics are an afterthought
[6:34 PM] Cameron Saunders: and the number of flip monsters that become floaters is very high in the format(edited)
[6:34 PM] kperovic: It'd be different if people ran more blade knight and kycoo
[6:41 PM] Cameron Saunders: So if I were to make a video and define this, how about: "A floater is a card that has replaced its own value in trade, while lingering in the game."
[6:50 PM] kperovic: I feel like you should just say whatever you're most comfortable with that gets your point across.
[6:51 PM] kperovic: I'm not sure anyone else will read into it as much as we are.
[6:52 PM] Cameron Saunders: yeah probably. I'd be following with an explanation and a contrast to modern definitions anyway
[6:53 PM] kperovic: Right, I wouldn't sweat it.
[6:55 PM] Cameron Saunders: Thanks for the discussion, man.
-End of Discussion-
Last Note: Cameron Saunders is a weed head. This picture clearly shows him after he had smoked some lines.
Darudity- Posts : 11
Join date : 2016-12-27 -
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